Comments on: Tannins - We’ve all heard the word, here’s what they are… http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/ A Wine Blog Dedicated To Terrior Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:38:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: Al http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-149680 Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:42:09 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-149680 Tom thanks for a very enjoyable read. I have been in industrial water treating for 30 years and work in the area of settling solids and recently in Membrane separations(technologies which have found their way into the wine biz). Although I am not in the "Wine trade" I would like To add to Erics comments above. Precipitation of some solids can be enhanced via temp drop because of reduced solubility. I have always assumed this to be the case with often found tartrate crystals in whites together with or without their added presence via acidity correction Tom thanks for a very enjoyable read. I have been in industrial water treating for 30 years and work in the area of settling solids and recently in Membrane separations(technologies which have found their way into the wine biz). Although I am not in the “Wine trade” I would like To add to Erics comments above. Precipitation of some solids can be enhanced via temp drop because of reduced solubility. I have always assumed this to be the case with often found tartrate crystals in whites together with or without their added presence via acidity correction

]]> by: Rob http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-2474 Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:20:56 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-2474 Hmmmm, someone needs to brush their tongue! Hmmmm, someone needs to brush their tongue!

]]> by: mr. greg http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-950 Sat, 24 Feb 2007 12:05:37 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-950 well, if by philistine, i also mean incapable of spelling: "tannins" not "tannens" -- apologies! Also, sorry for not reading all the comments about mouth feel before posting mine. Okay, where's my coffee to clear up last night's "tastings"...? well, if by philistine, i also mean incapable of spelling: “tannins” not “tannens” — apologies! Also, sorry for not reading all the comments about mouth feel before posting mine. Okay, where’s my coffee to clear up last night’s “tastings”…?

]]> by: mr. greg http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-949 Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:56:55 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-949 Interesting piece, but what about the mouth feel? The first comment revealed more about how one *experiences* the wine than the technical description about what tannens *are.* For example, what are "integrated" or "soft" tannins that we hear so much about? And if one comes across "harsh tannens" is there something that could be done about it (the "pucker factor")? I've always assumed that the the smoother a wine is, the softer the tannens--but then, I'm an inveterate philistine!! :D Interesting piece, but what about the mouth feel? The first comment revealed more about how one *experiences* the wine than the technical description about what tannens *are.* For example, what are “integrated” or “soft” tannins that we hear so much about? And if one comes across “harsh tannens” is there something that could be done about it (the “pucker factor”)? I’ve always assumed that the the smoother a wine is, the softer the tannens–but then, I’m an inveterate philistine!! :D

]]> by: TSchampaert http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-894 Sun, 18 Feb 2007 11:39:44 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-894 Interesting articel Tom. Tannins are still a world to explore for biochemistry. Here at university of Leuven, we have smby, who already did a PhD on tannins and now for the last three years or smth is still doing research on them. He says that tannins form a molecular universe on their own (like you said: only the variety because of sudden heat or temperate periods and all). Anthocyanins, those split offs, are also, for a large part, the compounds that make a wine red to purple (that is in its juvenile stage, the brick red colour of most aged wines is smth else). Anthocyanins colour red in an acid environment and colour blue in a alcaline environment. Do the test: when you have a considerable left over in a glass (a small sip), add some demineralized water and some colourless kitchen vinegar: the colour will be vigorously red (that is in diluted form), when you add some colourless hand soap it will turn purplishly blue. Wines are acid, so the colou will be red, that's all. Yet, anthocyanins also have an important role in tasting patterns, etc. Oak tannins (elagitannins) are said to have no taste. Yet, it's still a mystery why we can 'taste' that a wine is oaked (without a GV-oak monster hurling it's way through your palate :D). The texture of oak tannins is not uniform, as oak tannins are not just oak tannins. Age, growing place, subspecies, etc. have a very large influence on the eventual appearance of oak tannins. The exchange of oak tannins and grape tannins is also an issue of much controversy. Whether tannins and elagitannins exchange in a signifcant amount (that is to be noticed by the trained palate) is not certain. There is no hard biochemical evidence for that. In oaked wines they are found together. But whether the mellowing of the grape originated tannic structure is caused by oak tannin exchange or by reaction of the grape tannins with the chemeical substrate of the oak, is not really well known. Also, the different feel of oak tannins is not substantially proven. It is quite possible that the perception of lignin and lignans is automatically associated with a 'feel' of oak tannins, yet, when the lignin and lignans are stripped from the wine test tasters didn't seem capable anymore of 'feeling' anything different. Mystery, those tannins ... There is good article on Tyler Thomas's blog: http://www.vinesnwines.org/?p=79 Interesting articel Tom.
Tannins are still a world to explore for biochemistry. Here at university of Leuven, we have smby, who already did a PhD on tannins and now for the last three years or smth is still doing research on them. He says that tannins form a molecular universe on their own (like you said: only the variety because of sudden heat or temperate periods and all).
Anthocyanins, those split offs, are also, for a large part, the compounds that make a wine red to purple (that is in its juvenile stage, the brick red colour of most aged wines is smth else). Anthocyanins colour red in an acid environment and colour blue in a alcaline environment. Do the test: when you have a considerable left over in a glass (a small sip), add some demineralized water and some colourless kitchen vinegar: the colour will be vigorously red (that is in diluted form), when you add some colourless hand soap it will turn purplishly blue. Wines are acid, so the colou will be red, that’s all. Yet, anthocyanins also have an important role in tasting patterns, etc.
Oak tannins (elagitannins) are said to have no taste. Yet, it’s still a mystery why we can ‘taste’ that a wine is oaked (without a GV-oak monster hurling it’s way through your palate :D ). The texture of oak tannins is not uniform, as oak tannins are not just oak tannins. Age, growing place, subspecies, etc. have a very large influence on the eventual appearance of oak tannins. The exchange of oak tannins and grape tannins is also an issue of much controversy. Whether tannins and elagitannins exchange in a signifcant amount (that is to be noticed by the trained palate) is not certain. There is no hard biochemical evidence for that. In oaked wines they are found together. But whether the mellowing of the grape originated tannic structure is caused by oak tannin exchange or by reaction of the grape tannins with the chemeical substrate of the oak, is not really well known. Also, the different feel of oak tannins is not substantially proven. It is quite possible that the perception of lignin and lignans is automatically associated with a ‘feel’ of oak tannins, yet, when the lignin and lignans are stripped from the wine test tasters didn’t seem capable anymore of ‘feeling’ anything different.
Mystery, those tannins …

There is good article on Tyler Thomas’s blog: http://www.vinesnwines.org/?p=79

]]> by: JimKay http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-830 Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:14:07 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-830 Cold stabilization is a process used to reduce acidity in wine by chilling it to about 25 degrees F to force potassium bitartrate out of solution. It is done in white wine because there is more tartaric acid present. Also is helpful in wine made from hybrids that have a higher acid content. The wine is "cold stable" meaning bitartrate crystal won't form latter in the bottle when it is refigerated. The crystals can be alarming to some consumers. The process is speeded up by adding some cream of tarter to the wine (seed crystals). - Modern Winemaking by Philip Jackish Cold stabilization is a process used to reduce acidity in wine by chilling it to about 25 degrees F to force potassium bitartrate out of solution. It is done in white wine because there is more tartaric acid present. Also is helpful in wine made from hybrids that have a higher acid content. The wine is “cold stable” meaning bitartrate crystal won’t form latter in the bottle when it is refigerated. The crystals can be alarming to some consumers. The process is speeded up by adding some cream of tarter to the wine (seed crystals). - Modern Winemaking by Philip Jackish

]]> by: Tom C http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-688 Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:47:06 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-688 Luv- Thanks for the kind words. In my experience the CHARACTER of tannins in a wine never change per se - like dusty tannins becoming spikey tannins for example, they simply fade and diminish...maybe like a photograph would do - the image will fade, change color, get dog-eared, but it's still the same photo... TOM CIOCCO Luv-

Thanks for the kind words. In my experience the CHARACTER of tannins in a wine never change per se - like dusty tannins becoming spikey tannins for example, they simply fade and diminish…maybe like a photograph would do - the image will fade, change color, get dog-eared, but it’s still the same photo…

TOM CIOCCO

]]> by: luvgrapesqeezings http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-687 Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:30:15 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-687 Tom, That's an excellent article on tannins. It would be nice to see some discussion about how tannins feel in the mouth besides mouth-puckering astringency. For instance, many wine writers compare the body of wine to how skim, 1%, 2%, whole milk and cream feels in the mouth. Wines are often described as having a variety of textures (ie. silky, satiny, dusty, angular, chewy,velvety etc...). Tom I'd like to know if wines that have chalky or dusty tannins develop smoother textures with further bottle ageing? Tom,
That’s an excellent article on tannins. It would be nice to see some discussion about how tannins feel in the mouth besides mouth-puckering astringency. For instance, many wine writers compare the body of wine to how skim, 1%, 2%, whole milk and cream feels in the mouth. Wines are often described as having a variety of textures (ie. silky, satiny, dusty, angular, chewy,velvety etc…). Tom I’d like to know if wines that have chalky or dusty tannins develop smoother textures with further bottle ageing?

]]> by: Tom C http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-685 Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:00:09 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-685 Eric- I've actually never heard anything about the formation of tartrates as a result of cooling/cold stabilzation, though there is no doubt that tartrates form in white wines as well...as I say in the article, tartrates are themselves not tannins, but in red wines, tartrates often have quantities of tannins trapped in their structures... TOM CIOCCO Eric-

I’ve actually never heard anything about the formation of tartrates as a result of cooling/cold stabilzation, though there is no doubt that tartrates form in white wines as well…as I say in the article, tartrates are themselves not tannins, but in red wines, tartrates often have quantities of tannins trapped in their structures…

TOM CIOCCO

]]> by: Eric http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-683 Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:52:07 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/02/09/tannins-weve-all-heard-the-word-heres-what-they-are/#comment-683 Tom, Good artical, but you may consider advising your readers of the formation of tartrate crystals as a result of chilling (as opposed to aging), and the preventative effects of cold stabilization. My experiences have revealed tartrates in white wines far more often than in reds. Cheers! Tom,

Good artical, but you may consider advising your readers of the formation of tartrate crystals as a result of chilling (as opposed to aging), and the preventative effects of cold stabilization. My experiences have revealed tartrates in white wines far more often than in reds.

Cheers!

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