Not in my place you’re not! - A restauranteur takes a stand
…My first of what I hope to be many truly food-focused posts…
This is a true story that I’ve told to friends, colleagues, etc. over the years, and it never fails to elicit a strong opinion…where do you stand?
In my first job as a wine salesman in NewYork City, I used to call on a restaurant in Greenwich Village run by an Italian husband and wife team. Lovely people - he was an amateur painter, and what amounted to the “executive chef” - the kind of guy that once he knows you as a customer won’t let you order off of the menu but rather asks you what you’re in the mood for, and then insists that he make you something special if you would humor him…and it was usually the right move too, by the way…This gentleman’s wife was the archetypal tough but sweet southern Italian matron - the sort of person that immediately commands respect with a queit steelyness just behind her gracious hospitality. Let’s call her Cinzia. On one particular visit she told me this story…
One evening a 30 something-woman arrived at the restaurant on the late-ish side of the dinner service to dine alone, presumably after a late night at work. She was seated and brought a menu and a wine list. She perused the menu standards, the wine list, as well as the daily specials. Since it was already a bit late, she decided against any wine, but she was quite hungry, so she ordered chicken liver pate` crostini topped with a cannellini/tomato/basil mixture, and spaghetti “frutti di mare” (with clams, mussels, shrimp, squid, in a white wine/garlic sauce).
Shortly after ordering, her appetizer was brought by her server, and because of her considerable appetite, and the relatively late hour, she made short work of her toasts, enjoying every bite, and began to eagerly anticipate her pasta dish. When it arrived, it was being carried not by her waiter or server, but by Cinzia herself - like any good restauranteur, she was well aware how much more the “Is everything to your liking?” question means to a patron when it’s coming from the mouth of an owner…The question was asked, and “Yes, delicious, thank you” was the reply. As they were chatting, Cinzia set down her customer’s pasta dish, and asked her if there was anything else she needed. The customer said yes, just a bit of Parmigiano for her pasta. Cinzia’s eyes popped, and her jaw hit the floor. She paused momentarily, gathered herself, and kindly but firmly began to explain to her patron that this dish is customarily served without cheese, and that is why she didn’t bring it to the table with the dish. She explained that this dish traded on the delicacy of the fresh shellfish, and that any sort of strong, hard cheese like Parmigiano or Pecorino would destroy those subtleties. The woman politely thanked her for the expalnation, and asked once again for the grated cheese. Cinzia, a bit of her temper showing, refused to bring the cheese. She explained that this was just simply not done, and since this place was an offering of HER food, she couldn’t with good conscience allow her to do it. She politely but firmly gave the patron three options:
- Choose another dish onto which she COULD sprinkle cheese at no extra charge…
- Eat the pasta as is
- Leave now, no charge for anything, and go to one of her “competitors” that would let you put hot fudge on lasagna, anchovies in your espresso, anything else for that matter…
The customer clearly felt put upon, and was visibly irate, but VERY reluctantly agreed to keep the dish. Cinzia thanked her, and continued about her business throughout the restaurant. About 15 minutes after their terse exchange, the patron summoned Cinzia to her table. Cinzia certainly expected the worst, but upon arriving at the table, the customer demurely apologized, and then thanked Cinzia for her advice - she told her that the dish was DELICIOUS, and that she had never enjoyed it as much before, and told her that she had learned something, and would never put grated cheese on this dish ever again…She left happy, and has become a regular customer.
So what are your thoughts? What do you think of Cinzia’s approach? What about the patron? I’m going to hold my thoughts until I get a comment or two, but I’m hoping we can put together another lively discussion with this one…fire away!
TOM CIOCCO
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Tom-
My wife and I just rented the movie called _Big Night_ which had a scene in it almost exactly as you described, only with a different ending (cheese was proffered, patrons unhappy)
I have also been in Italy and seen a similar situation (American asks for cheese, it is refused. Hostility ensues)
I have never seen the happy ending you descibe, but I am glad to hear it happened.
It DID happen, right?
Dan (In Houston)
Comment by Dan — March 19, 2007 @ 2:51 pm
Hi Dan-
You know, I never saw Big Night, but I’ve always been told that I would like it…yes, this did actually happen, and this is how it turned out…a fortunate anomaly perhaps? How do you feel about this approach?
TOM CIOCCO
Comment by Tom C — March 19, 2007 @ 3:33 pm
I love the approach, but I don’t think it will always, or even usually result in the edification you have observed.
It makes me think about people who always know best (I’m not drinking any %^$%$&& Merlot!)
Sometimes it helps just to listen.
More power to Mama!
Comment by Dan — March 19, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
I understand that this is how many Asian chefs feel about soy sauce — adding it to the food is quite an insult for some and should most certainly not be done if you’re having a home-cooked meal.
The habit that Americans have of dunking sushi in soy-wasabi makes a good sushi chef shudder. I saw one once who stopped someone from dipping an artistic (and rather pricey) piece of sushi, telling the offender that if he wanted to dip he should order something cheap like a California roll. The man got quite a scolding from the chef, then shrugged his shoulders and said he was “sitting at the sushi bar to learn — thanks.”
Comment by Cindy W — March 19, 2007 @ 6:21 pm
Give the customer your recommendation, and then let him make the choice, however misguided the chef may think it is. If the customer wants to squirt ketchup all over the caviar/black truffle/saffron/diamond-coated whatever, then so be it. It might be cringe-worthy, but it’s the customer’s money, and it’s his experience.
Even if the dish is eaten exactly as served, not every customer will enjoy the singular, exalted experience that the chef has intended. This is because each customer brings his own experiences, knowledge, tastes, etc. to the table. (This goes back to the armpit-smelling post, and the discussion we had there.) So, in my judgment, since the chef can’t impart any particular experience with absolute reliability and predictability, why try to police it?
Now, if the product at hand is sui generis (e.g., art), I understand the impulse to screen and cherry-pick the clientele with the highest demonstrated level of appreciation… those persons capable of acting as the most responsible custodian/caretaker for future generations. But if the product is simply going to be consumed upon purchase, then who is the chef to care? If someone is willing to pay $10,000+ for that last bottle of 1947 Cheval Blanc in the cellar, then it shouldn’t matter whether he’s a reverent, lifelong oenophile or just a rich slob who wants to use the juice to wash bird stains off his customized Bentley.
Comment by TagWorld Brian — March 19, 2007 @ 7:06 pm
That’s a hell of a way to gamble on a business. I totally understand the sentiment, but I could not imagine doing this to a customer. You may have gained a customer for life THIS time, but you could have also lost many more in the process!! BUT….I completely understand the viewpoint of the owner’s wife.
Comment by aktormedic — March 19, 2007 @ 8:03 pm
Brian-
Interesting distinction you make between “art” and “food”. I would make two observations:
1. Many artists would like to have control over their art after they sell it. (eg to whom it could be resold) which our society does not allow
2. Some chefs feature themselves as artists and do not want to pollute their creations, and by virtue of the fact that they can (racial, sexual, age discrimination notwithstanding) refuse to serve some (with the effect that they don’t get paid) they can maintain that control.
People (read that food people) DO care what happens to their food (wine)
They do have a right to say how it is consumed.
Dan (in Houston)
Comment by Dan — March 19, 2007 @ 9:15 pm
Dan,
Thanks for the comments.
1. True, in our country, we have a strictly circumscribed notion of moral rights, or “droit moral.” Compared to France, for example, artists in the US have limited ability under copyright laws to maintain control over their art, to ensure proper attribution of authorship with the work, to ensure the work’s continued integrity (i.e., avoid distortion or mutilation). There were limited amendments made to our copyright laws about 15 years ago, in order to meet the demands of an international treaty we signed, but this amendment is very narrow. Snoooze. I’m probably losing the non-lawyer audience here…
Anyhoo… our society does allow some control by the artist, but not much.
2. True, if a chef fancies himself/herself an artist, he can refuse service. Of course, there is also a grand tradition of “art” for the common man. So taking pride in one’s work doesn’t have to lead to exclusion and elitism, or undue worry about how the work is being consumed and appreciated. It can be art for art’s sake, and the artist can focus on the joy of creation, reaching towards the goal of mastery through repetition and practice.
Bottom line: anyone can have any attitude he/she wishes. And then they take the consequences of that attitude, for better or worse. If I’m treated the way that Greenwich Village pasta lady treated the woman in the story, I’m not only leaving immediately, but I’m going online and telling 10,000 of my closest friends how obnoxiously I was treated. Then they can also make their own decision about whether to walk into that minefield.
Comment by TagWorld Brian — March 19, 2007 @ 10:06 pm
Dan touched upon an interesting point earlier when he mentioned he saw how a similiar situation in Italy. Perhaps the debate can shift from one centered around ‘purity of artistic expression’ towards one centered around cultural differences in dinning out. In one culture, lets say the ‘hold the pickles, hold the lettuce American consumer focused restaurant culture’ where salt, pepper and ketchup are on every table. And in other cultures, lets say the ‘eat whats on your plate’ family focused restaurant culture where the pace and atmosphere of dinning is strikingly different.
It is interesting to note what restaurants put condiments on a table and which ones do not. I’ve never witnessed a server or restauranter refuse to bring salt and pepper or hot sauce to a table, but I definetly understand Cinzia’s point. Maybe she could try to understand how one with an American consumer mentality would feel cheated or deprived when steadfastly denied the cheese. I’d bet that the most diplomatic way for Cinzia to resolve the situation would be for her to
1. First explain why the entry is better without cheese.
2. Offer her the entry for free if she does not like it
3. Somehow set up a taste test. However, this can be tricky if it takes someone some time to really appreciate subtlies and nuances of a dish especially if a customer is chomping at the bit to get to the cheese.
A more diplomatic mindset would be a safer when dealing with a broader range of customers who are taught that they and their dollars are always right.
Comment by luvgrapesqeezings — March 20, 2007 @ 10:12 am
All-
I don’t see this as much as an aesthetic question but rather one of RESPECT for this couple’s “house” and what they work so hard to do there…the painting example might substitute well - If you were a painter, would you sell your work to someone who you KNEW had an abiding interest for publicly burning art as a sort of political/cultural/artistic statement? What about someone who you knew was going to partially paint over what you’ve painted? This example to me shows a lack of respect for this person’s “muse”, especially if the “desecration” is made public. If you purchase this artist’s paintings, and take them HOME and mess with them, that is a bit different (think of putting the cheese on the frutti di mare pasta at HOME as a TAKE-OUT dish). In this situation, the “desecration” is beyond your control…
Here’s another analogy - If you went to Japan, would you refuse to remove your shoes upon entering someone’s home, and then proceed to put those still shoed feet up on their coffee table - it’s not “hurting” anyone (probably not even the coffee table) so why shouldn’t you be allowed to do it? I think that you can see why you shouldn’t…you may do that in your own house, but that’s just the point - YOU’RE NOT IN YOUR OWN HOUSE. If you find your host’s rules noxious, then don’t visit them any more.
BRIAN - Your “bottom line” is the same as many others, and is quite understandable, but she frankly doesn’t care - she’s got a full dining room every night, and when you’re in her house, you follow her rules. If you can’t she will actually call one of her competitors and arrange a table there. She thinks that those in the “know” will more than make up for the “caffoni” (boors) who don’t want to learn or those that believe that spending money = getting WHATEVER you want…and this to me is why so many of her patrons have so much respect for her - there are things in this life that are more important than money, and she’s walking that walk…and in the end, it’s VERY clever too…over time, it creates a certain smug, “I’m in the club” attitude amongst her patrons that keep them coming back…
She is adamant about the fact that she is not there to “please” people per se - she says that that’s what whores do - whatever they’re asked to do for money - and even some whores will refuse to do certain things.
When all is said and done, she believes that she is making a heart and soul “offering” with a certain general “love” for her customers. She could skimp here and there regarding ingredients, etc. that she could easily hide from you, but out of the passion from which this whole enterprise is born, and the respect for her customers sophisticated palates, she will not embarress herself, nor she believes her customers who she believes will feel not so much displeased but duped.
TOM CIOCCO
Comment by Tom C — March 20, 2007 @ 10:23 am
I wonder if she could have ’sold’ the idea a little better? part of her product is hospitality, and you can get the same result in different ways, no?
Comment by seth godin — March 20, 2007 @ 11:55 am
Seth et al.-
While “Cinzia” CAN be a fairly prickly individual, she in no way made a scene or attempted in any way to humiliate her customer. She tried to educate and got back what she perceived to be (right or wrong) a sort of stubborn ignorance with which she will not tolerate. I didn’t mean to characterize this exchange as any kind of dressing down - Cinzia is always very polite, but in the end it’s her way or the highway which may entail, eventually, being asked to leave - very politely.
TOM CIOCCO
Comment by Tom C — March 20, 2007 @ 12:51 pm
Tom, thanks for your reply. Just to be clear, I understand the proud sensibilities informing Cinzia’s conduct. There are definitely things more important in life than money, and I applaud people who work hard to reconcile moral and ethical goals with commerce.
But… I believe the customer in your scenario did not make an unreasonable demand, and it shouldn’t have been treated as such. The menu made an offer to sell frutti di mare. It didn’t specify that no substitutions or condiments will be permitted. The customer accepted the offer, and given that 99% of restaurants probably would bring out cheese upon request, she was reasonable in expecting that this restaurant would also do so. (It’s not like putting your shoes on the table at a friend’s private residence. Everybody knows, or reasonably should know, that normal rules forbid this.)
Cinzia should have accommodated the customer. The next night, if she still felt sufficiently aggrieved over the situation, she could have reworded her menu to give overt advance notice of her “no condiments” policy.
My original point was and remains that, if Cinzia wants to treat a paying customer this way, and cleverly narrow her clientele to only those people with some sort of need to be “in the know,” to be part of an elite club… then fine. If she can afford it, more power to her. Like I said, she is free to adopt any attitude and bear the market consequences of it.
And on the other side, those who choose not to be insulted for ultimately insisting on their own preferences, who don’t believe they should be viewed as a prostitute’s “John” for wanting what they want, can and should make the choice to dine elsewhere. This is why I applaud all the sites that post user reviews of restaurants. Research first, then commit your money and time.
Cinzia may have acted this way because she feels she is making a heart and soul offering with a certain general love for her customers. But separating issues of money and commerce, this love is a gift. It should be freely given, for the joy of giving, without expectation of receiving any desired result, or anything in return. That’s just my $0.02.
Comment by TagWorld Brian — March 20, 2007 @ 3:52 pm
Brian-
I think that we agree completely on what’s at work here, but disagree on the validity of her approach. I think it’s great, and wish more had her passion…it occurred to me earlier that part of the intractability that she demonstrates is rooted in the ABYSMAL state of “Italian” food, even in NYC, and feeling like she’s being rebuffed or snubbed - that she is taking the extra time to cook authentic Italian fare and educate people about it (which she is no way obligated to do) and the person is essentially saying “Yeah, yeah, I don’t really care, just give me what I want right now.”
There is actually a movement in Italy to officially sanction with an Italian government seal restaurants that are deemed by a judging body to be AUTHENTIC Italian food. There is a very common complaint by Italian expats and visitors alike (who usually are fairly adventurous eaters when it comes to other’s cuisines) who want to have a short trip back home via food, go to what they think to be a REAL Italian restaurant, and get a shocking surprise at the disconnect between what is listed on the menu and what is eventually brought to their table - like the time a Roman friend of mine ordered Spaghetti alla Carbonara and it arrived covered in MUSHROOMS! I literally thought he was going to cry…
..look at the “mirror image” of this whole story…what if you went to Mexico and ordered a hamburger only to find out that they served it wrapped in a tortilla and the meat was seasoned with Mexican oregano, tomatillo, and ancho chile powder - very tasty, maybe, but at the end of the day, it’s just not a hamburger.
TOM CIOCCO
Comment by Tom C — March 20, 2007 @ 5:02 pm
Tom,
We actually don’t really disagree. The only thing I would resent, if I were the customer in this situation, is the lack of advance notice. (And I’m sure Cinzia resented the fact that she had to deal with an insistent guest, in a polite but confrontational way that probably made her uncomfortable at some level.)
Sometimes I’m in the mood for sushi, omakase style. I’m looking forward to being educated, and I’m willing to submit to the experience without protest. Other times, I want the control. Maybe I’m in the mood for a bastardized, Americanized, tempura-ized California roll variation that has nothing to do with real sushi. All I’m saying is, give me the choice beforehand. Let me know what I’m getting into. That way, no misunderstandings.
Comment by TagWorld Brian — March 20, 2007 @ 6:20 pm
I’ve gotta vote with Mama. As a business owner, I already see far too many egotistical customers who think they know the copywriting business, and I get sick and tired of having to give them The Speech about how do they know it won’t sell unless they TRY it?
Yeah, if I were the customer, I’d gulp and think about storming out…but then I think I’d try to TRUST the owner and TRY that dish.
It all boils down to whether the customers is willing to trust the owner/creator…and whether the owner is willing to put future business and goodwill on the line.
And for me, it’s also that life’s just too darned short to put up with unappreciative a-holes.
Well, you did ask, Tom!
Comment by WhiteH2OWoman — March 20, 2007 @ 8:04 pm
No one wants to be made a fool of, embarassed or made to feel ignorant. Maybe a polite explaination of why cheese isn’t offered, but then get the DAMN cheese, with a smile, if the customer insists.
Comment by TommyBoBo of WI — March 20, 2007 @ 8:57 pm
To all-
I want to stress the fact that Cinzia is a very charming person, she just believes that there is a right way and a wrong way to do things when it comes to Italian cuisine, and she first tries to repectfully educate - like I said in the body of the text, she explained that the dish was simply too delicate to support grated cheese, and assured the diner that she would enjoy it more without the cheese, which she indeed did, but again, of the three options she gives in these situations (Eat the dish as is; Change dishes, no charge; Go someplace else) putting cheese on that dish is absolutely not one of them, EVER…In an earlier, identical incident, she she offered to allow the person to eat the ENTIRE dish of Spaghetti frutti di mare, and if he didn’t agree that the dish was better without the cheese, she would bring the patron another pasta dish at no charge, but she still under no circumstances would allow this person to put cheese on that dish. He too was convinced after trying the dish “senza grana”. There’s a reason why you don’t put Cheez Wiz on caviar…
TOM CIOCCO
TOM CIOCCO
Comment by Tom C — March 21, 2007 @ 10:05 am
Well, I guess people have to agree to disagree on this one. If a proprietor challenged me like this and pushed me to the wall, I wouldn’t interpret it kindly. But c’est la vie.
Comment by TagWorld Brian — March 21, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
Cinzia was right: “If you don’t stand for something, you will fall for anything” (Steve Bartkowski). She is an artist, with food. To put cheese on this dish would have destroyed it’s subtlety and artistry. Because she stood her ground, when she knew she was correct, her patron enjoyed the dish more completely, as it was supposed to be. I love the 3 choices: 1: as is, 2, substitute, 3: take a hike. Classic!!!
JW
Comment by John Blue Label — March 23, 2007 @ 5:09 pm
interesting story….
I’ve been in the restaurant and bar business and the bottom line is pleasing the customer. I appreciate Cinzia’s attempt to serve the dish appropriately, but 9 out of 10 times she would lose the business. As a barman I would never EVER shake a bombay sapphire martini - but if a customer insisted on having little ice particles floating around in their gin - it’s their money. Suggestions that borderline snobbery have no place in the food and beverage business.
Comment by vinnyd — March 24, 2007 @ 12:47 pm
I’m the kitchen manager at a local italian/americana family restaurant and get very frustrated with customers seemingly wanting to change everything they order into a different dish. Our menu items were developed with specific flavor combinations in mind and all this altering is taking away the personality and character of individual restaurants. But my time working at a few chain restaurants taught me that most consumers are looking for and expect the “have it your way” approach. If I get to start my own eatery, I think I would do just what she did, but I think that wouldn’t go over well with most people.
Comment by vivaitalia — June 17, 2007 @ 9:49 pm