In praise of the “BYOB” restaurant

25 Comments »

We have ‘em in Texas and I like ‘em so much, I seek them out! It’s kind of a game with us around here to find new restaurants, since it takes months and months for the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission (TABC) to grant a liquor license, new restaurants are always fair game for BYOB for about the first 3-4 months…then the party’s over.

I recently sought clarification of the “corkage fee” thing within Texas, and here it is, summarized from the TABC site:

1. A restaurant that has no liquor license or just a beer and wine license may (note the word “MAY”) allow BYOB.

2. A place has a liquor license or a private club permit CANNOT legally allow patrons to bring in their own alcohol, sealed or not.

Thus, we seek out places that don’t sell mixed drinks. I don’t feel that the corkage fee should be more than $10/bottle…and maybe $2 for beer.

There’s a great BBQ place in Driftwood, outside Austin, called the Salt Lick. No license of any kind, totally BYOB…and they don’t mind people wheeling in the kegs! Fun place.

Comment by WhiteH2OWoman — March 26, 2007 @ 5:50 pm

Hey Tom!
I live in southern CA and this ‘BYOB’ thing is extremely common. Outside of chain ’sit down’ places (T.G.I.Fridays/Applebees/Outback Steakhouse/ Black Angus/ Olive Garden/ etc.)BYOB & Corkage fees go hand in hand….of course corkage fees vary, but most places are fine with you bringing in your own wine… “I guess I thought this was pretty universal.” he said as his eyes opened a little more.
(Just a side note)
I’m new to WLtv and have recently discovered your ‘terroir’ section…to be honest, I have found that I really enjoy watching Gary at night and reading your topics in the morning with breakfast. I’m sure this is part of your job, but thanks for taking an informative, yet fun and humble approach to your writing…it’s really a joy to read.

Comment by Fiorentina! — March 27, 2007 @ 11:19 am

Fiorentina-

Glad to hear you’re digging the blog. Thanks for the kind words.

TOM CIOCCO

Comment by Tom C — March 27, 2007 @ 1:21 pm

Tom, I also live in So.Cal. (Los Angeles), and I’m really into BYOB. Again, it’s all about the corkage here. There’s a small chain of restaurants called Cafe Bizou. The food is ok, but the corkage is only $2! On the other side of the spectrum, there’s a recently-trendy fusion restaurant on Sunset called Asia de Cuba (I think they have a few around the country), and if I recall correctly, corkage there was $50!! What a rip. At that point, it only makes sense if you’re planning to bring a $100 bottle with you (because it would cost $250 on the wine list, so you’re still better off even with the corkage fee).

I think corkage is a major scam. There should be 2 choices at a restaurant: (1) sit back for full service, and pay the restaurant mark up for the bottle, or (2) BYOB with no corkage fee, and it’s total self serve (no sommolier, self-open, self-pour).

- Brian

Comment by TagWorld Brian — March 27, 2007 @ 2:48 pm

TWG-

Yeah, a $50 corkage is nuts. I’m not sure if I understand you right about Cali laws, but here in NJ, there are restaurants with licenses and those without. Those without are all BYOB unless the owner objects for some reason. Restaurants with licenses can choose to accept or reject “outside bottles” and the corkage fee charged is entirely up to them.

TOM CIOCCO

Comment by Tom C — March 27, 2007 @ 3:53 pm

Tom — interesting topic and one that takes me back to my nearly 5-year stint in Westfield, NJ. Westfield was great for BYOB: according to local urban legend, one of the in-town churches had bought up many of the finite number of licenses, so lots of restaurants had no EtOH and welcomed BYOB — and it didn’t hurt the local retail stores (oops, conflict of interest showing…).

Comment by NeedzWine — March 27, 2007 @ 4:35 pm

Hey Tom-
I’m a manager of a Wine Bar in Southern CA. It is my understanding that there are 2 different types of liquor licenses 1) hard alcohol (20% +) and 2) Beer and Wine (20% Max). Also, any establishment that allows BYOB must possess at least a Beer and Wine license. Because of this, almost every place possesses a corkage fee, probably to deter you from bringing your own bottle and buying one of their cheap ones. There are a lot more codes and regulations that I don’t really know about. Sorry that I couldn’t be more informative.
What are the licenses like out there on the East Coast?

Comment by Fiorentina! — March 27, 2007 @ 11:21 pm

Tom, I haven’t researched the license situation here in Cali. Just speaking from the POV of a consumer. But in my experience here, it doesn’t seem to matter whether a restaurant has its license, in order to allow BYOB or not. I mean, both restaurants that I mentioned in my earlier post have full bars and wine service, and BYOB is permitted. I’m surprised to read that in other states, BYOB only occurs when a restaurant otherwise can’t legally sell you wine/liquor…?

Comment by TagWorld Brian — March 27, 2007 @ 11:36 pm

I didn’t see Fiorentina’s post until after I hit send on mine. I’ll defer to her expertise obviously. And it makes sense that a beer & wine license is the bare minimum requirement to allow BYOB, because I don’t recall going into a dry restaurant and being able to BYOB (BMOB?) there. But I probably wouldn’t think to try that anyway. I mean, I wouldn’t bring a bottle of 1961 Cheval Blanc into KFC. That only happens in the movies.

Comment by TagWorld Brian — March 27, 2007 @ 11:39 pm

I love BYOB’s! I think the restaurant markup is insane and makes wine with a meal inaccessible to many people. I wish restaurants would get a clue on that! Plus, many (less-than-upscale) restaurants have crappy wine lists anyway so your paying $$$ for cheap wine. This leads me to order water, thank you very much. Here in PA, I have gathered that restaurants with wine lists cannot by law allow BYOB. So I just wish more restaurants didn’t have licenses!

Comment by EricB — March 28, 2007 @ 9:46 am

Fiorentina-

Re-read the post about the NJ and NY Liquor laws…the real crazy state here in the east though is Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania has a state liquor board that buys and sells all alcoholic beverages (in shops, bars and restaurants buy from distributors), so in theory, there is some bureaucrat buying every single bottle of wine for the whole state. They have tried making some “high-end” magnet stores in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, etc. and they have been fairly successful, but these shops still have to carry wines from the state “master list”

As you can imagine, the Jersey side of the Delaware river is LINED with wine shops to serve Pennsylvanians looking for some more off the beaten path wines…there are a bunch of other bizarre rules - for example, you can only buy 2 6 packs of beer at a time. If you’re having a party and want 2 cases, you have to go in and out of the shop 4 times…I think that either Vermont or New Hampshire also has a state liquor control board, but I think it’s far more flexible than PA. Penn. is INFAMOUS in the industry…

TOM CIOCCO

Comment by Tom C — March 28, 2007 @ 10:15 am

Hi Tom,
Congratulations on the blog. You’ve got some nice articles there. On the BYOB topic I can’t say much. I’ve lived in Queens, NY for over 10 years and have never found one BYOB restaurant. It sucks. You Jersey guys are lucky. You got Wine Library, BYOB restaurants! What else can you ask for!
Take care and keep up the good writing.

Comment by Diablito — March 28, 2007 @ 12:07 pm

Tom:
If you need “bulk” beer in PA, you need to go to a beer outlet, distinct from a package store that sells six-packs. The outlets sell only cases. Some are drive-thru!

As far as BYO’s go, I am local to WL and thus enjoy a huge choice of interesting BYO’s. It is a rare night when I patronize a place with a liquor license. I have run into a couple of examples which bridge the gap between these two options: restaurants that own or are somehow affiliated with liquor stores/wine shops and will allow you to purchase wine at the retail (regular retail, not WL retail!) price and they will carry it into the restaurant and serve it to you. One of these is a place called Callahan’s in Surf City on Long Beach Island. Their prices are high, but much lower than the typical wine list. There also are a number of places, some in NYC, that make a true effort to keep their wine list prices close to retail. One of Mario Battali’s places, Babbo, has a killer list of hard/impossible to find mature Italian selections for under $100. Pretty fair.

Comment by Russ J — March 28, 2007 @ 12:39 pm

L’il Devil-

Yeah, New York is VERY light on BYOBs since its so easy and inexpensive to obtain liquor licenses; that, coupled with the rents folks have to pay, it’s a critical piece of the puzzle to even keep the doors open for business. Thanks for reading.

TOM CIOCCO

Comment by Tom C — March 29, 2007 @ 9:30 am

I have always tried to seek out BYOB places in NY. Theres a great place called Tartine on W11th and W4th. Its very very tiny and always has a wait. Ive seen people standing outside with wine glasses in 30 degree weather waiting for a table.

I think that because BYOB is so rare in NYC, restaurants could stand out and attract more business simply by providing it as a service. I mean the food doesnt even have to be that good…people just want an opportunity to drink their wine outside the apartment, in a different setting.

Comment by Lev M. — March 29, 2007 @ 11:01 am

Tom,
You didn’t mention the advantage of wine lists to wine newbies, especially by-the-glass lists. If you want to try new things or are learning about wine it’s a lot more economical to buy a glass at $5-$10 than the bottle.
A large percentage of the people I serve wine to at my restaraunt know nothing to little about wine, but they are willing to try a glass that I recommend and 99 times out of a hundred they are happy that they did.
The option of “trying a glass” is just not available at a BYO place.

Comment by Billy C — March 29, 2007 @ 11:11 pm

Billy-

In one sense, you’re absolutely right, but on another level, it’s just stealing from Peter to pay Paul…what I mean is that while a wine bar or a restaurant with a large by-the-glass selection can indeed give “newbies” the opportunity to try new varieties/wines, I would argue that it is not any more economical…while I was selling wine in NYC, the by-the-glass formula that was applied nearly uniformly by my clients was the cost of a bottle determined the cost of a glass, i.e. if the bottle cost the restaurant/bar $10, a glass of the same wine on their list was also $10 - essentially selling one glass paid for the whole bottle. Now while the liquor store customer does not pay the wholesale prices that a bar or restaurant does, it STILL doesn’t work out dollar-wise…the wine shop industry “standard” mark-up is 50% give or take, so that $10 bottle would cost the consumer about $15 in a shop. That established, what would you rather have, a glass of wine that costs $10 that you might not like, or an entire bottle that costs $15 that you might not like? Think aboout it - if you HATE the wine at a wine bar, you’ve paid 10 bucks for a few sips, if you hate a bottle of wine, you have paid a bit more for it, but at least you’ve got cooking wine, or maybe you can give it to someone who WILL like it.

Also, while many wine bars take good care of the wines that they serve, and move them fast enough that they are served in their best form, if you’re trying a wine for the first time, how would you be able to determine whether you didn’t like it because it just wasn’t to your taste, or because the bottle had been open for three days?…I’ve even seen restauranteurs mix in lesser wines to better ones to extend their profits, like watering down bottles of Scotch…and while these people are probably in the minority, they’re DEFINITELY out there…Sorry if I’m giving away some trade secrets, but unless this formula has changed, making an economic argument just doesn’t hold water (or wine)…Has this formula been “softened”recently?

TOM CIOCCO

Comment by Tom C — March 30, 2007 @ 10:02 am

Hey Tom!
With your latest response, I can’t help, but think that you’re giving Wine Bars a bad name. Sure, I cannot speak for any other establishment, but I definitely can defend my own.
You said, “if you’re trying a wine for the first time, how would you be able to determine whether you didn’t like it because it just wasn’t to your taste”
Our goal is to show the public that wine shouldn’t promote elitism,but rather should be enjoyed by all. When I walk around my shop with a customer and the customer just doesn’t trust my recommendation, I offer a bit of the wine to them to try…this way they knew what they’re getting. Also, I thought it was pretty common for servers to pour a bit of wine in a glass before pouring the customer an entire glass.

You also said, “the wine shop industry “standard” mark-up is 50% give or take, so that $10 bottle would cost the consumer about $15 in a shop.”
I’m going to tell it to you straight….that just isn’t true for my area. In my area of Southern CA the market mark up is 30%, give or take. For us, we offer a “vineyard of the month” and take 10% off that…also, we give 18% on special case orders…so that makes the mark up only 12%. These types of mark ups are just standard for our area.
I’m not even going to touch the whole “watered down thing.”
Sorry if this seems to be a bit negative, but I just felt like I needed to strap on the armor and defend my shop (as well as other establishments). We’re not all traditional capitalists.

Comment by Fiorentina! — March 30, 2007 @ 11:18 am

Fiorentina-

Thanks for the challenge…First, I don’t see how elitism figures in this discussion at all…I’m a bit confused by this comment…please clarify…

Second, much of what you say does not apply here…in NY you cannot sell “package” goods and serve wine in the same location - the license types are totally separate, and the twain never meet. Beer is sold only in delicatessens and supermarkets, but supermarkets cannot sell wine or hard stuff in any way shape or form, even as a separate concession business under the same roof. Liquor stores must close 1 day per week (Sunday had been mandated, but now the owners have the option to choose their closure days). You CAN sample wines to customers in liquor stores, but there are strict limits on how much can be poured, how many kinds of wines that you put out to be sampled, etc…you are lucky that you are permitted to taste so freely…this helps move wine, which raises your economy of scale…

Here in NJ, we only recently gained the ability to sample wines in-store, but we are limited to a maximum of 4 1.5 oz. pours per taster, the samples must come from our stocks, and while the winemaker/importer/etc. can be present to answer questions, they cannot even TOUCH the bottles…Also here in NJ there are a few “grandfathered” licenses called “Broad C” that allow the owner to essentially have a bar inside of a liquor store, but no new “Broad C” licenses have been issued for at least 20 years, and there only ever were 30 or 40 in the whole state to begin with.

Third, I don’t mean to imply that all or even most liquor shops in NY/NJ operate on a 50% margin, but MANY do, and many mark up certain items well higher than that, but if the standard liquor shop mark-ups in the LA area are indeed as low as you say, it only further proves my point, not yours - it makes the risk of buying an entire bottle of an unknown item less risky, not more…

Another important factor is that California, because its vast growing industry, is AWASH in wine - it’s everywhere. Here on the east coast our home-grown quality wine-making industry is still very immature, and some say that it’s not even worth the effort to try to develop it - wrong climate, bla bla bla…

So, having so much wine floating around everywhere keeps prices down locally (lower transportations costs, etc.), and the competition keeps people honest. Now we here in the east we drink TONS of wine too, but wine for many east coasters is a product from far away, and is therefore viewed more as a luxury product (though this is changing rapidly, and none too soon), so people are willing to pay more for it.

Fourth, NYC is NYC - and though LA ain’t cheap, it ain’t NY expensive no how! There are restaurants in NY that charge $15 a glass for white zin, no joke, and I’ve seen bald-faced adulteration with my own eyes - I’ve seen restauranteurs take fairly expensive empty bottles of a Macon wine off of tables that are being cleared, take them into the back room, and pour KJ Chardonnay into them, and charge the Macon price for it as a by the glass pour at the bar…

In the end, I think we’re both right, we’re just trying to mitigate an “apples and oranges” situation…subtle diffences in alcohol laws, when extrapolated outwards, often become groaning chasms down the line…

looking forward to you response.

TOM CIOCCO

In the end, I think

Comment by Tom C — March 30, 2007 @ 12:23 pm

We have no BYOB’s here in Tidewater VA and the only place I consistently see them is in California where people routinely bring wines especially in wine country. Many restaruants sell bottles in a storefront and charge only a small corkage fee to encourage storefront purchases. I travel a lot and go to local restaurants in many places. Besides having horrendous wine lists, they have the nerve to put something like Yellow Tail on the menu at $7.50 per glass. That is a 300-350% markup. Having worked in the restaurant business in the past, I know that alcohol sales are big money makers but it fosters a displeasure with the business to see these ridiculous markups. I often don’t go back to restaurants that are the most abusive. I do have one wine bar in my are in Nofolk, VA that routinely does 6-7 wine flights for $15 per patron and often pours 1/3 of a glass of each wine. I know the folks, the food is good and the company better and people stand in line to get in and they make money. So why can’t more restauranteurs get this into their heads. More people are drinking wine in restaurants than ever. Make it part of dinner instead of an agonizing decision.

Comment by Lawrence Leichtman — March 30, 2007 @ 1:39 pm

Hey Tom!
First of all, I would like to express my apprecation for not taking my defense personally. Personal attacks are not my style, but I just want to make sure that your West Coast readers understand that these regulations are not universal.
Secondly, my whole ‘elitism’ statement is just me on a soap box. I agree with Gary (yes, I’ve heard him express this) that wine has this scary, formal, high class reputation that many consumers (especially young consumers) are intimidated by and I work to remidy that reputation in the minds of my customers. (here I go again…sorry)
Third, I feel that we’re both correct in our views about mark ups and wine by the glass prices. You are essentially arguing that cost vs. risk is in favor of purchasing a bottle over a glass of wine. Yet, I think that you are also stating that establishments are out to steal the money from the consumer and that just isn’t the case for several wine bars in my area…(I think you put it as stealing from Peter to pay Paul) Do restaurants practice this mentality? Yes, but there is a huge difference between wine bars and restaurants that serve wine.
Are we splitting hairs? Yes…but these subtle differences have effected the way that the average consumer looks at wine and the wine industry in general. I guess what I really want to say is that not every Paul is out to essentially steal the money from Peter. If you want to BYOB, do it because you like the wine and it would pair well with your meal, do it because it’s a special occassion, do it because you have a better than Paul is offering, but don’t do it because you feel Paul is stealing from you because that’s not always true.
By the way Tom…nice read on Fruili

Comment by Fiorentina! — March 30, 2007 @ 2:28 pm

Tom, I’m horrified by the story about the Macon - cheapo chard. switcheroo. I don’t really expect that to happen in LA, but it’s a bad story. But I do agree with you about the risk of getting a stale wine by the glass, when you dine out. I was just listening to a 3WineGuys podcast last night about this. They mentioned that this shouldn’t happen too often if you dine somewhere that moves a lot of product. But woe betide the diner who goes out on a Monday or Tuesday night, and orders by the glass. There’s a pretty good chance that wine has been sitting since Saturday night. I don’t work in the wine biz, so this is all pure speculation on my part. But I trust the 3WineGuys. And they gave a shout-out to Gary on their podcast, so it’s all good. (In case you’re wondering, it was their fairly recent Riesling ep.)

Comment by TagWorld Brian — March 30, 2007 @ 3:44 pm

Just to elicit a little more sympathy for us poor benighted Pennsylvanians - the Liquor Control Board had a program called Chairman’s Select presided over by the LCB Chairman who LOVED wine and finally brought in some interesting selections. Ran sales. Advertised. Hosted wine dinners etc. A political dogfight recently ensued when the Gov appointed a new paid CEO for the LCB. Chairman resigned, advertising for the program stopped and the new Chairman has said publicly he doesn’t know much about wine as he prefers scotch. Meanwhile we are driving back across the river!!!

Comment by Pat Mc — April 5, 2007 @ 12:36 pm

Pat Mc-

Welcome aboard! I’ve heard the same sad story, and in the end you wonder what they’re thinking - sure, the state makes a LOAD of revenue from Alcohol sales, but it seems pretty clear that a larger, better selection of wines = MORE revenue for PA…Why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

TOM CIOCCO

Comment by Tom C — April 5, 2007 @ 4:36 pm

I love BYOB, which is why I’d much rather go out to dinner in NJ than NY.

Some years ago when a purportedly good Italian restaurant opened in my town, Maplewood, my wife and I booked reservations. I brought a really nice Banfi Brunello with me, not knowing whether the resturant was BYOB or not. After we were seated, I asked if they would open my wine. “No, sir, I’m sorry. We have a wine list.” I looked it over. The list was short, overpriced and (mostly) undistinguished. Well, the place was new; maybe it takes a while to develop a good wine list.

I offered to pay a corkage fee, but was told they didn’t allow it. I asked for the manager and told him: “Name your price. I’ll pay it. I’d just prefer to drink my own wine.” The guy refused! Needless to say, I vowed never to return — and that’s a vow I made before I ate my mediocre entre. (Although I have to say that the dessert was great.)

Comment by M Block — April 14, 2007 @ 11:45 am

RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI

Leave a comment

Name (required)

Mail (will not be published) (required)

Website