Comments on: In praise of the “BYOB” restaurant http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/ A Wine Blog Dedicated To Terrior Fri, 25 Jul 2008 02:59:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: M Block http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2800 Sat, 14 Apr 2007 16:45:17 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2800 I love BYOB, which is why I'd much rather go out to dinner in NJ than NY. Some years ago when a purportedly good Italian restaurant opened in my town, Maplewood, my wife and I booked reservations. I brought a really nice Banfi Brunello with me, not knowing whether the resturant was BYOB or not. After we were seated, I asked if they would open my wine. "No, sir, I'm sorry. We have a wine list." I looked it over. The list was short, overpriced and (mostly) undistinguished. Well, the place was new; maybe it takes a while to develop a good wine list. I offered to pay a corkage fee, but was told they didn't allow it. I asked for the manager and told him: "Name your price. I'll pay it. I'd just prefer to drink my own wine." The guy refused! Needless to say, I vowed never to return -- and that's a vow I made before I ate my mediocre entre. (Although I have to say that the dessert was great.) I love BYOB, which is why I’d much rather go out to dinner in NJ than NY.

Some years ago when a purportedly good Italian restaurant opened in my town, Maplewood, my wife and I booked reservations. I brought a really nice Banfi Brunello with me, not knowing whether the resturant was BYOB or not. After we were seated, I asked if they would open my wine. “No, sir, I’m sorry. We have a wine list.” I looked it over. The list was short, overpriced and (mostly) undistinguished. Well, the place was new; maybe it takes a while to develop a good wine list.

I offered to pay a corkage fee, but was told they didn’t allow it. I asked for the manager and told him: “Name your price. I’ll pay it. I’d just prefer to drink my own wine.” The guy refused! Needless to say, I vowed never to return — and that’s a vow I made before I ate my mediocre entre. (Although I have to say that the dessert was great.)

]]> by: Tom C http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2574 Thu, 05 Apr 2007 21:36:01 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2574 Pat Mc- Welcome aboard! I've heard the same sad story, and in the end you wonder what they're thinking - sure, the state makes a LOAD of revenue from Alcohol sales, but it seems pretty clear that a larger, better selection of wines = MORE revenue for PA...Why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs? TOM CIOCCO Pat Mc-

Welcome aboard! I’ve heard the same sad story, and in the end you wonder what they’re thinking - sure, the state makes a LOAD of revenue from Alcohol sales, but it seems pretty clear that a larger, better selection of wines = MORE revenue for PA…Why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

TOM CIOCCO

]]> by: Pat Mc http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2566 Thu, 05 Apr 2007 17:36:21 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2566 Just to elicit a little more sympathy for us poor benighted Pennsylvanians - the Liquor Control Board had a program called Chairman's Select presided over by the LCB Chairman who LOVED wine and finally brought in some interesting selections. Ran sales. Advertised. Hosted wine dinners etc. A political dogfight recently ensued when the Gov appointed a new paid CEO for the LCB. Chairman resigned, advertising for the program stopped and the new Chairman has said publicly he doesn't know much about wine as he prefers scotch. Meanwhile we are driving back across the river!!! Just to elicit a little more sympathy for us poor benighted Pennsylvanians - the Liquor Control Board had a program called Chairman’s Select presided over by the LCB Chairman who LOVED wine and finally brought in some interesting selections. Ran sales. Advertised. Hosted wine dinners etc. A political dogfight recently ensued when the Gov appointed a new paid CEO for the LCB. Chairman resigned, advertising for the program stopped and the new Chairman has said publicly he doesn’t know much about wine as he prefers scotch. Meanwhile we are driving back across the river!!!

]]> by: TagWorld Brian http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2325 Fri, 30 Mar 2007 20:44:07 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2325 Tom, I'm horrified by the story about the Macon - cheapo chard. switcheroo. I don't really expect that to happen in LA, but it's a bad story. But I do agree with you about the risk of getting a stale wine by the glass, when you dine out. I was just listening to a 3WineGuys podcast last night about this. They mentioned that this shouldn't happen too often if you dine somewhere that moves a lot of product. But woe betide the diner who goes out on a Monday or Tuesday night, and orders by the glass. There's a pretty good chance that wine has been sitting since Saturday night. I don't work in the wine biz, so this is all pure speculation on my part. But I trust the 3WineGuys. And they gave a shout-out to Gary on their podcast, so it's all good. (In case you're wondering, it was their fairly recent Riesling ep.) Tom, I’m horrified by the story about the Macon - cheapo chard. switcheroo. I don’t really expect that to happen in LA, but it’s a bad story. But I do agree with you about the risk of getting a stale wine by the glass, when you dine out. I was just listening to a 3WineGuys podcast last night about this. They mentioned that this shouldn’t happen too often if you dine somewhere that moves a lot of product. But woe betide the diner who goes out on a Monday or Tuesday night, and orders by the glass. There’s a pretty good chance that wine has been sitting since Saturday night. I don’t work in the wine biz, so this is all pure speculation on my part. But I trust the 3WineGuys. And they gave a shout-out to Gary on their podcast, so it’s all good. (In case you’re wondering, it was their fairly recent Riesling ep.)

]]> by: Fiorentina! http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2322 Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:28:17 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2322 Hey Tom! First of all, I would like to express my apprecation for not taking my defense personally. Personal attacks are not my style, but I just want to make sure that your West Coast readers understand that these regulations are not universal. Secondly, my whole 'elitism' statement is just me on a soap box. I agree with Gary (yes, I've heard him express this) that wine has this scary, formal, high class reputation that many consumers (especially young consumers) are intimidated by and I work to remidy that reputation in the minds of my customers. (here I go again...sorry) Third, I feel that we're both correct in our views about mark ups and wine by the glass prices. You are essentially arguing that cost vs. risk is in favor of purchasing a bottle over a glass of wine. Yet, I think that you are also stating that establishments are out to steal the money from the consumer and that just isn't the case for several wine bars in my area...(I think you put it as stealing from Peter to pay Paul) Do restaurants practice this mentality? Yes, but there is a huge difference between wine bars and restaurants that serve wine. Are we splitting hairs? Yes...but these subtle differences have effected the way that the average consumer looks at wine and the wine industry in general. I guess what I really want to say is that not every Paul is out to essentially steal the money from Peter. If you want to BYOB, do it because you like the wine and it would pair well with your meal, do it because it's a special occassion, do it because you have a better than Paul is offering, but don't do it because you feel Paul is stealing from you because that's not always true. By the way Tom...nice read on Fruili Hey Tom!
First of all, I would like to express my apprecation for not taking my defense personally. Personal attacks are not my style, but I just want to make sure that your West Coast readers understand that these regulations are not universal.
Secondly, my whole ‘elitism’ statement is just me on a soap box. I agree with Gary (yes, I’ve heard him express this) that wine has this scary, formal, high class reputation that many consumers (especially young consumers) are intimidated by and I work to remidy that reputation in the minds of my customers. (here I go again…sorry)
Third, I feel that we’re both correct in our views about mark ups and wine by the glass prices. You are essentially arguing that cost vs. risk is in favor of purchasing a bottle over a glass of wine. Yet, I think that you are also stating that establishments are out to steal the money from the consumer and that just isn’t the case for several wine bars in my area…(I think you put it as stealing from Peter to pay Paul) Do restaurants practice this mentality? Yes, but there is a huge difference between wine bars and restaurants that serve wine.
Are we splitting hairs? Yes…but these subtle differences have effected the way that the average consumer looks at wine and the wine industry in general. I guess what I really want to say is that not every Paul is out to essentially steal the money from Peter. If you want to BYOB, do it because you like the wine and it would pair well with your meal, do it because it’s a special occassion, do it because you have a better than Paul is offering, but don’t do it because you feel Paul is stealing from you because that’s not always true.
By the way Tom…nice read on Fruili

]]> by: Lawrence Leichtman http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2320 Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:39:21 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2320 We have no BYOB's here in Tidewater VA and the only place I consistently see them is in California where people routinely bring wines especially in wine country. Many restaruants sell bottles in a storefront and charge only a small corkage fee to encourage storefront purchases. I travel a lot and go to local restaurants in many places. Besides having horrendous wine lists, they have the nerve to put something like Yellow Tail on the menu at $7.50 per glass. That is a 300-350% markup. Having worked in the restaurant business in the past, I know that alcohol sales are big money makers but it fosters a displeasure with the business to see these ridiculous markups. I often don't go back to restaurants that are the most abusive. I do have one wine bar in my are in Nofolk, VA that routinely does 6-7 wine flights for $15 per patron and often pours 1/3 of a glass of each wine. I know the folks, the food is good and the company better and people stand in line to get in and they make money. So why can't more restauranteurs get this into their heads. More people are drinking wine in restaurants than ever. Make it part of dinner instead of an agonizing decision. We have no BYOB’s here in Tidewater VA and the only place I consistently see them is in California where people routinely bring wines especially in wine country. Many restaruants sell bottles in a storefront and charge only a small corkage fee to encourage storefront purchases. I travel a lot and go to local restaurants in many places. Besides having horrendous wine lists, they have the nerve to put something like Yellow Tail on the menu at $7.50 per glass. That is a 300-350% markup. Having worked in the restaurant business in the past, I know that alcohol sales are big money makers but it fosters a displeasure with the business to see these ridiculous markups. I often don’t go back to restaurants that are the most abusive. I do have one wine bar in my are in Nofolk, VA that routinely does 6-7 wine flights for $15 per patron and often pours 1/3 of a glass of each wine. I know the folks, the food is good and the company better and people stand in line to get in and they make money. So why can’t more restauranteurs get this into their heads. More people are drinking wine in restaurants than ever. Make it part of dinner instead of an agonizing decision.

]]> by: Tom C http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2317 Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:23:32 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2317 Fiorentina- Thanks for the challenge...First, I don't see how elitism figures in this discussion at all...I'm a bit confused by this comment...please clarify... Second, much of what you say does not apply here...in NY you cannot sell "package" goods and serve wine in the same location - the license types are totally separate, and the twain never meet. Beer is sold only in delicatessens and supermarkets, but supermarkets cannot sell wine or hard stuff in any way shape or form, even as a separate concession business under the same roof. Liquor stores must close 1 day per week (Sunday had been mandated, but now the owners have the option to choose their closure days). You CAN sample wines to customers in liquor stores, but there are strict limits on how much can be poured, how many kinds of wines that you put out to be sampled, etc...you are lucky that you are permitted to taste so freely...this helps move wine, which raises your economy of scale... Here in NJ, we only recently gained the ability to sample wines in-store, but we are limited to a maximum of 4 1.5 oz. pours per taster, the samples must come from our stocks, and while the winemaker/importer/etc. can be present to answer questions, they cannot even TOUCH the bottles...Also here in NJ there are a few "grandfathered" licenses called "Broad C" that allow the owner to essentially have a bar inside of a liquor store, but no new "Broad C" licenses have been issued for at least 20 years, and there only ever were 30 or 40 in the whole state to begin with. Third, I don't mean to imply that all or even most liquor shops in NY/NJ operate on a 50% margin, but MANY do, and many mark up certain items well higher than that, but if the standard liquor shop mark-ups in the LA area are indeed as low as you say, it only further proves my point, not yours - it makes the risk of buying an entire bottle of an unknown item less risky, not more... Another important factor is that California, because its vast growing industry, is AWASH in wine - it's everywhere. Here on the east coast our home-grown quality wine-making industry is still very immature, and some say that it's not even worth the effort to try to develop it - wrong climate, bla bla bla... So, having so much wine floating around everywhere keeps prices down locally (lower transportations costs, etc.), and the competition keeps people honest. Now we here in the east we drink TONS of wine too, but wine for many east coasters is a product from far away, and is therefore viewed more as a luxury product (though this is changing rapidly, and none too soon), so people are willing to pay more for it. Fourth, NYC is NYC - and though LA ain't cheap, it ain't NY expensive no how! There are restaurants in NY that charge $15 a glass for white zin, no joke, and I've seen bald-faced adulteration with my own eyes - I've seen restauranteurs take fairly expensive empty bottles of a Macon wine off of tables that are being cleared, take them into the back room, and pour KJ Chardonnay into them, and charge the Macon price for it as a by the glass pour at the bar... In the end, I think we're both right, we're just trying to mitigate an "apples and oranges" situation...subtle diffences in alcohol laws, when extrapolated outwards, often become groaning chasms down the line... looking forward to you response. TOM CIOCCO In the end, I think Fiorentina-

Thanks for the challenge…First, I don’t see how elitism figures in this discussion at all…I’m a bit confused by this comment…please clarify…

Second, much of what you say does not apply here…in NY you cannot sell “package” goods and serve wine in the same location - the license types are totally separate, and the twain never meet. Beer is sold only in delicatessens and supermarkets, but supermarkets cannot sell wine or hard stuff in any way shape or form, even as a separate concession business under the same roof. Liquor stores must close 1 day per week (Sunday had been mandated, but now the owners have the option to choose their closure days). You CAN sample wines to customers in liquor stores, but there are strict limits on how much can be poured, how many kinds of wines that you put out to be sampled, etc…you are lucky that you are permitted to taste so freely…this helps move wine, which raises your economy of scale…

Here in NJ, we only recently gained the ability to sample wines in-store, but we are limited to a maximum of 4 1.5 oz. pours per taster, the samples must come from our stocks, and while the winemaker/importer/etc. can be present to answer questions, they cannot even TOUCH the bottles…Also here in NJ there are a few “grandfathered” licenses called “Broad C” that allow the owner to essentially have a bar inside of a liquor store, but no new “Broad C” licenses have been issued for at least 20 years, and there only ever were 30 or 40 in the whole state to begin with.

Third, I don’t mean to imply that all or even most liquor shops in NY/NJ operate on a 50% margin, but MANY do, and many mark up certain items well higher than that, but if the standard liquor shop mark-ups in the LA area are indeed as low as you say, it only further proves my point, not yours - it makes the risk of buying an entire bottle of an unknown item less risky, not more…

Another important factor is that California, because its vast growing industry, is AWASH in wine - it’s everywhere. Here on the east coast our home-grown quality wine-making industry is still very immature, and some say that it’s not even worth the effort to try to develop it - wrong climate, bla bla bla…

So, having so much wine floating around everywhere keeps prices down locally (lower transportations costs, etc.), and the competition keeps people honest. Now we here in the east we drink TONS of wine too, but wine for many east coasters is a product from far away, and is therefore viewed more as a luxury product (though this is changing rapidly, and none too soon), so people are willing to pay more for it.

Fourth, NYC is NYC - and though LA ain’t cheap, it ain’t NY expensive no how! There are restaurants in NY that charge $15 a glass for white zin, no joke, and I’ve seen bald-faced adulteration with my own eyes - I’ve seen restauranteurs take fairly expensive empty bottles of a Macon wine off of tables that are being cleared, take them into the back room, and pour KJ Chardonnay into them, and charge the Macon price for it as a by the glass pour at the bar…

In the end, I think we’re both right, we’re just trying to mitigate an “apples and oranges” situation…subtle diffences in alcohol laws, when extrapolated outwards, often become groaning chasms down the line…

looking forward to you response.

TOM CIOCCO

In the end, I think

]]> by: Fiorentina! http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2315 Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:18:21 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2315 Hey Tom! With your latest response, I can't help, but think that you're giving Wine Bars a bad name. Sure, I cannot speak for any other establishment, but I definitely can defend my own. You said, "if you’re trying a wine for the first time, how would you be able to determine whether you didn’t like it because it just wasn’t to your taste" Our goal is to show the public that wine shouldn't promote elitism,but rather should be enjoyed by all. When I walk around my shop with a customer and the customer just doesn't trust my recommendation, I offer a bit of the wine to them to try...this way they knew what they're getting. Also, I thought it was pretty common for servers to pour a bit of wine in a glass before pouring the customer an entire glass. You also said, "the wine shop industry “standard” mark-up is 50% give or take, so that $10 bottle would cost the consumer about $15 in a shop." I'm going to tell it to you straight....that just isn't true for my area. In my area of Southern CA the market mark up is 30%, give or take. For us, we offer a "vineyard of the month" and take 10% off that...also, we give 18% on special case orders...so that makes the mark up only 12%. These types of mark ups are just standard for our area. I'm not even going to touch the whole "watered down thing." Sorry if this seems to be a bit negative, but I just felt like I needed to strap on the armor and defend my shop (as well as other establishments). We're not all traditional capitalists. Hey Tom!
With your latest response, I can’t help, but think that you’re giving Wine Bars a bad name. Sure, I cannot speak for any other establishment, but I definitely can defend my own.
You said, “if you’re trying a wine for the first time, how would you be able to determine whether you didn’t like it because it just wasn’t to your taste”
Our goal is to show the public that wine shouldn’t promote elitism,but rather should be enjoyed by all. When I walk around my shop with a customer and the customer just doesn’t trust my recommendation, I offer a bit of the wine to them to try…this way they knew what they’re getting. Also, I thought it was pretty common for servers to pour a bit of wine in a glass before pouring the customer an entire glass.

You also said, “the wine shop industry “standard” mark-up is 50% give or take, so that $10 bottle would cost the consumer about $15 in a shop.”
I’m going to tell it to you straight….that just isn’t true for my area. In my area of Southern CA the market mark up is 30%, give or take. For us, we offer a “vineyard of the month” and take 10% off that…also, we give 18% on special case orders…so that makes the mark up only 12%. These types of mark ups are just standard for our area.
I’m not even going to touch the whole “watered down thing.”
Sorry if this seems to be a bit negative, but I just felt like I needed to strap on the armor and defend my shop (as well as other establishments). We’re not all traditional capitalists.

]]> by: Tom C http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2308 Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:02:56 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2308 Billy- In one sense, you're absolutely right, but on another level, it's just stealing from Peter to pay Paul...what I mean is that while a wine bar or a restaurant with a large by-the-glass selection can indeed give "newbies" the opportunity to try new varieties/wines, I would argue that it is not any more economical...while I was selling wine in NYC, the by-the-glass formula that was applied nearly uniformly by my clients was the cost of a bottle determined the cost of a glass, i.e. if the bottle cost the restaurant/bar $10, a glass of the same wine on their list was also $10 - essentially selling one glass paid for the whole bottle. Now while the liquor store customer does not pay the wholesale prices that a bar or restaurant does, it STILL doesn't work out dollar-wise...the wine shop industry "standard" mark-up is 50% give or take, so that $10 bottle would cost the consumer about $15 in a shop. That established, what would you rather have, a glass of wine that costs $10 that you might not like, or an entire bottle that costs $15 that you might not like? Think aboout it - if you HATE the wine at a wine bar, you've paid 10 bucks for a few sips, if you hate a bottle of wine, you have paid a bit more for it, but at least you've got cooking wine, or maybe you can give it to someone who WILL like it. Also, while many wine bars take good care of the wines that they serve, and move them fast enough that they are served in their best form, if you're trying a wine for the first time, how would you be able to determine whether you didn't like it because it just wasn't to your taste, or because the bottle had been open for three days?...I've even seen restauranteurs mix in lesser wines to better ones to extend their profits, like watering down bottles of Scotch...and while these people are probably in the minority, they're DEFINITELY out there...Sorry if I'm giving away some trade secrets, but unless this formula has changed, making an economic argument just doesn't hold water (or wine)...Has this formula been "softened"recently? TOM CIOCCO Billy-

In one sense, you’re absolutely right, but on another level, it’s just stealing from Peter to pay Paul…what I mean is that while a wine bar or a restaurant with a large by-the-glass selection can indeed give “newbies” the opportunity to try new varieties/wines, I would argue that it is not any more economical…while I was selling wine in NYC, the by-the-glass formula that was applied nearly uniformly by my clients was the cost of a bottle determined the cost of a glass, i.e. if the bottle cost the restaurant/bar $10, a glass of the same wine on their list was also $10 - essentially selling one glass paid for the whole bottle. Now while the liquor store customer does not pay the wholesale prices that a bar or restaurant does, it STILL doesn’t work out dollar-wise…the wine shop industry “standard” mark-up is 50% give or take, so that $10 bottle would cost the consumer about $15 in a shop. That established, what would you rather have, a glass of wine that costs $10 that you might not like, or an entire bottle that costs $15 that you might not like? Think aboout it - if you HATE the wine at a wine bar, you’ve paid 10 bucks for a few sips, if you hate a bottle of wine, you have paid a bit more for it, but at least you’ve got cooking wine, or maybe you can give it to someone who WILL like it.

Also, while many wine bars take good care of the wines that they serve, and move them fast enough that they are served in their best form, if you’re trying a wine for the first time, how would you be able to determine whether you didn’t like it because it just wasn’t to your taste, or because the bottle had been open for three days?…I’ve even seen restauranteurs mix in lesser wines to better ones to extend their profits, like watering down bottles of Scotch…and while these people are probably in the minority, they’re DEFINITELY out there…Sorry if I’m giving away some trade secrets, but unless this formula has changed, making an economic argument just doesn’t hold water (or wine)…Has this formula been “softened”recently?

TOM CIOCCO

]]> by: Billy C http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2287 Fri, 30 Mar 2007 04:11:01 +0000 http://terroir.winelibrary.com/2007/03/26/in-praise-of-the-byo-restaurant/#comment-2287 Tom, You didn't mention the advantage of wine lists to wine newbies, especially by-the-glass lists. If you want to try new things or are learning about wine it's a lot more economical to buy a glass at $5-$10 than the bottle. A large percentage of the people I serve wine to at my restaraunt know nothing to little about wine, but they are willing to try a glass that I recommend and 99 times out of a hundred they are happy that they did. The option of "trying a glass" is just not available at a BYO place. Tom,
You didn’t mention the advantage of wine lists to wine newbies, especially by-the-glass lists. If you want to try new things or are learning about wine it’s a lot more economical to buy a glass at $5-$10 than the bottle.
A large percentage of the people I serve wine to at my restaraunt know nothing to little about wine, but they are willing to try a glass that I recommend and 99 times out of a hundred they are happy that they did.
The option of “trying a glass” is just not available at a BYO place.

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